I'm very excited about this experiment. I think it will work well. Anyway, I decided to press the hot button and go with gay marriage. I've very passionate about this subject and see it as some what of a second civil rights movement. Things have gotten a lot better for the homosexuals. It used to be that they were fighting for the right to civil rights! Can you imagine? But that's not what I want to talk about. I want to discuss one particular aspect of homosexual rights: gay marriage. This is arguably the biggest step for the homosexual community and one that I believe will be passed in the future.
First off, let's look at a common misconception that homosexuality is a choice. Some people (most) believe in this for religious reasons. I can understand that, but it's simply not true. By saying it's a choice, you are going against tons of research done by psychologists who are professionals in the field of sexual orientation (which does exist). Not many can show true evidence outside of religion that proves that homosexuality is a choice. but I'll humor you and say that it is. We live in a country of free will. If someone wants to 'choose' to be homosexual and get married, why should we stop them? They have the right to choose, so why not let them marry?
Also, how will this negatively affect you? That's something you really have to think about. How will this impact me? For us, it won't. What could you have to gain by not letting them have the right to marry? Succeeding in hatred? Even if it's not hatred of them, by as I've heard many conservatives say "What they do!" Is this right? How can we talk about how terrible it was to deny blacks rights and refuse to give women the right to vote, and then turn around and start the cycle all over again? I guess what this leads me to believe is, who's next? After homosexuals gain rights, who's next on the cycle of prejudice?
Perhaps some think this post has been a little harsh, and it has. I will admit that. But I also believe that it's wrong to do this to homosexuals. Put aside your religious thinking, and look at this in a different light. After all, weren't we founded on the principle of separation of church and state? For now, try to see past your differences, and look at the rights of others and see how they are being infringed. Maybe think twice about this issue when you get a chance to look at it and realize they're people too and they deserve equal rights.
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Actually, Alex, our country was founded on the principles of Christian morals and Biblical teaching. While the separation of Church and State is somewhat necessary in our government, and is a part of how our country was founded, your logic is, well, illogical, seeing as your facts are confused.
ReplyDeleteI also don't believe you are correct in your attempt to state that homosexuality is not so much a choice as a natural occurence. I have to say to you here: sorry, you're wrong.
Genetics is a strange and huge world to explore, and while I don't claim to be an expert, I do know that we have barely begun to tap the beginnings of this world, and for scientists today to say they understand the nature of human sexual orientation is, I'm sorry, a load of crap.
One last point of many that I could make is that I am very personally offended that you relate this to the civil rights movements of women and blacks. While today the race and gender card is overplayed, I do have two younger brothers whom are adopted and are black.
The difference here is that blacks and women are ethnic and gender groups. They did not CHOOSE who they would be, and they are human, and deserve equal rights.
Homosexuals CHOSE their path, chose it in complete disregard for the culture that used to frown upon these things, in disregard for the God who created them, and disregarded all decency in practicing this piece of Satanic abomination. As it says it Romans chapter 1: "And He gave them over to a depraved mind,".
This speaks of the human race becoming so evil and bad that God decided to give them what they wanted, to show them that what they did want wasn't so great. He's done that, and now we are reaping the whirlwind that we have sown.
I'm sorry to perhaps come across strongly on this. I respect that you have an opinion on this, but I also must say what I know is true through the God of Creation and His perfect and completely true Word, the Bible.
JT Norlander
Proeliator of Lux Lucis (Warrior of the Light)
www.proeliatorofluxlucis.blogspot.com
"Not many can show true evidence outside of religion that proves that homosexuality is a choice."
ReplyDeleteI've never read direct scientific proof that homosexuality is not a choice. But that might just be ignorance on my part.
And I agree with the fact that people treat homosexuals unfairly. Judging is strictly up to God, and its not my place to judge. But since we're allowed to voice our opinions here, because I'm a Christian I believe homosexuality, choice or not, is wrong.
Well, we have gone round and round about this already, so I am not sure what the point is.
ReplyDeleteHomosexuality is a choice (I know you said you would give us that point...after you said it wasn't true). This point has little to do with homosexuals getting married.
I would say that it is perfectly natural to consider marriage from a biblical stand point, because husband and wife is a relationship created by God.
For me this subject is complicated. I happen to believe that, as a religious institution, the government ought to have nothing to do with marriage. There are many things about how the government is legally involved in marriage that I do not agree with.
Since the government, both federal and state, have chosen marital status as a qualifier for many things, we should consider why. There is a married filing jointly income tax option for example. The reason for this is that couple getting married are valued because they help sustain our population and are more stable citizens in general. The government rewards this behavior with a tax benefit. Homosexuals do not provide these benefits, and therefore do not merit the tax break.
It is simple, marriage is about family. Homosexuality is naturally a dead end to family, so it make no sense to have homosexual marriage.
I have no interest in outlawing the choice of homosexuality. Likewise, I have no problem with certain restrictions on those who choose that lifestyle (such as not allowing lesbian gym teachers to go into the girls locker-room).
Alex, I will be frank, unless you can PROVE to me, with a source that I can verify, I will NEVER acknowledge that Homosexuality is not a choice.
ReplyDeleteAside from this, even if they have no choice but to feel an attraction for their own gender, Homosexuals do not lose control of their bodies. They are not forced by some kind of brain chemical to act out on these impulses. They CHOOSE to give in to what I believe, as JT Norlander said, is a "Satanic Abomination"
And, as Bard said, we have been over this again and again, we have, in turn, logically explained why homosexuality is a choice, a sin, and why we should not be forced to acknowledge it as anything else.
You, on the other hand, have ignored all our arguments, and simply repeated yourself, occasionally adding in a couple lines accusing us of being religious nuts, or bigots. You always claim that just about every scientist in the USA believes that Homosexuality is forced, but never go on to PROVE IT!
You are tooting the horn for a misguided and dangerous cause, and you demand that w e do the same. Not because you have reason (aside from your own emotions) for us to, but just because you said so.
Sorry, maybe that works for two-year-olds, but the mature, THINKNG adults that make up this country will need something a little more substantial than, “Because I said so!”
Thanks Einar, I totally agree with you.
ReplyDeleteJT
Thank you for posting, Alex!
ReplyDeleteWell, since most everything has been said already, I'll just go with one quick comment:
When it all comes down to it, GOD SPECIFICALLY SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG. It doesn't matter if I think they should be allowed to marry. It doesn't matter if it's a choice. God is against it, and that's good enough (well, almost ;)) for me.
Thanks again!
~Kendra
That's the problem. The excuse of "God says this . . " just won't work going forward. If you go to the supreme court and use "God says . . ." as evidence you will be laughed out. I can't not waiting to sit down with my kids and tell them about the times when people were so blinded by prejudice and fear that they said things as "They are a Satanic abomination!" That's just shameful and rude. Where's your logic, Eniar? You give me verses and opinions, but on the subject of gay marriage you have given nothing. Here is a link to the APA's section on homosexuality. It doesn't prove what I said, but it does mention that there is little evidence to suggest that it is caused by choice. http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html
ReplyDeleteBut where is your proof. You act like our beliefs are wrong because they are based on what God has told us.
ReplyDeleteWhat are your beliefs based on besides Alex?
The article you gave us above says this about it:
"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors."
You said in your original post:
"By saying it's a choice, you are going against tons of research done by psychologists who are professionals in the field of sexual orientation (which does exist)."
So, again, we are only asking you to show us the tons of research. Seems like a reasonable request to me.
We would not go to the supreme court and say “God says homosexuality is a sin so outlaw it!” we would say “We believe our God says homosexuality is a sin, so we will not let THEM bully you into forcing us to call their sinful unions Marriage.”
ReplyDeleteAnd you know what a judge who was really interested in upholding their oath would do? They would say “Hmmm, our country is about freedom of speech, NOT freedom of popular speech. Even if 99.9% of this country disliked these people’s opinions, I would still be bound to protect them from any law requiring them to recognize something they believe is wrong as right.”
If congress, ODP, the courts, whoever, actually manages to force us to not only be silent (which they have already done in a bill that prohibits pastors from speaking against, among other things, homosexuals, bisexuals, and PEDOPHILES, under the guise of protecting sexual orientations as minorities!) but decided to tell us what to think as well, where does it end?
What if they decide to make a law saying that we may not question the word of the President, since he is elected by a majority? This actually IS about civil rights, but OURS, not theirs.
How will gay marriage negatively affect you? You have yet to answer that. They just want euql rights. You use homphobia na dfear of what you don't know about to be against it. A real judge would say that he sees your point, by God cannot be used as evidence in the supreme court. That's why they stopped swearing on a bible. I don't want you to think gay marriage is right. You don't have to agree with it. Just don't be against it. How is this a dangerous cause? Do you realize you homphobic and ignoran you sound? I told you that much researh had been done. Recently, the APA said that homosexuality being a choice was mostly off the table. They also did not allow gay to straight therapy, as it didn't really work because on cannot chose one's sexuality. Perhaps you can explain to some gay friends of mien why they choose to be homosexual?
ReplyDeleteI still don't see any proof.
ReplyDeleteAll I see are red herrings (logic, sorry). Bard asked for proof and you answered his question with more questions instead of proof. Y'know?
So I'm probably just a kid getting over my head for putting my two cents about this in, but I don't wish to hold my opinion back.
ReplyDeleteI believe that if you don't agree with it, just don't do it. There is separation of church and state, and to outlaw homosexual marriage, only because of Christian morals, is religious prejudice. If we have another reason, then somebody please fill me in, because I'm lost (which probably makes everything I have to say invalid, and I need to learn to shut my mouth.).
I have a question which may or may not be unrelated. I don't know yet. Adultery. Is this as much of an "abomination" as homosexuality is supposed to be? I don't see how either sin would be worse than the other. Why is homosexuality outlawed, but adultery, as far as I’ve seen, isn't? The worst I've seen to come of it is divorce... But I think that depends on the state. I see people are more lenient with sex outside of marriage more so than homosexual marriage. Why so? They're both sin, so if one goes, I believe the other should as well.
I had something else I believe I was going to mention, but it slipped my mind. You all have understandable (if sometimes a bit confusing, at least to me) viewpoints, and honestly, I have no problem with homosexual marriage. If someone doesn’t agree with it, then they wouldn’t have to do it. Why restrict those who do believe in it? We were founded on freedom of religion, race, and speech. Why not sexual orientation? Yes, I know freedom of speech can be used to speak out against it, but unless solid proof is given that homosexuality would be hurting us, as a country, I don’t see why it should be illegal.
I am now confusing myself… So I suppose I’ll go now. If someone wants to reply or answer my questions, please feel free to do so, it’d really help. Or ignore me, because I wrote this all on personal feeling, not really using scientific proof and such...
Oh, and as to homosexuality being a choice or not… I don’t think I’ll ever understand that. I probably only could if I was one. And to hold back on those feelings, Einar… Living loveless because it was a sin to express how I felt..? Honestly, if that was the case, I wouldn’t care if it was a sin or not. Living without someone you love is a hard thing to do...
You said:
ReplyDelete"They also did not allow gay to straight therapy"
The APA article said:
"All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective."
They didn't say it was not allowed (they are an association and have no legal power to disallow "gay to straight therapy")
Later they did say:
"Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’s (client’s) right to selfdetermination..."
Selfdetermination means the person gets to decide, in other words, make a CHOICE. That choice could be to live a homosexual lifestyle, or to resist it and seek a heterosexual lifestyle, but the APA states it is the individual's CHOICE.
Thanks for sharing your ideas Muse...I am sure I speak for all when I say don't "Just shut up".
ReplyDeleteYou are right, adultery is no better than homosexuality in God's eyes. Sin is sin. People will make all kinds of distinctions that do not exist when it comes to sin, usually to justify the sin in their life that they do not want to change.
It matters to us if homosexual marriage is allowed, because marriage is something that God created. Homosexuality is not outlawed as you said, and I see no reason it should be. We are all free to pursue love as we see fit.
As I said in an earlier post, I believe the government should have nothing to do with marriage, but since they do, they need to do so with reverence to the source of marriage, which is God.
Okay, I wish you guys wouldn't say "you're wrong" so much, but I can't change that. What are we acheiving when we verbally beat each other up? Seriously.
ReplyDeleteI do have to agree with Alex that most scientists agree and generally society has agreed that people don't choose to be homosexual. Why would some people question their orientation, then? I greatly encourage all of you to take a look at these links: http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html.
I think...uh...Muse...of Randomness...made a good point. If you don't agree with it, don't do it! If this country's law was simply the teachings the Bible, we'd be a theocracy. Just so you know, we aren't.
The thing about Muse's question is also that adultery, while still an abomination and sin, is a "natural" sin. God intended sexual relations to be between man and woman, so in that respect, adultery in the common sense of the word is still sin, but not quite to the level of homosexuality, which is an unnatural practice that God never wanted for us. But going back to my earlier point, he gave it to us, because we wanted our sin so badly that he said, "here, take it, and be destroyed by it."
ReplyDeleteAlso to answer Alex's accusation of Homophobia: Do you even know what the word "phobia" means?
Homophobia would be a "fear of those who practice homosexuality".
Has anything in my replies or anyone else's ever stated that we are afraid?
I didn't think so.
That accusation is as false as all of your other evidence.
and yes, I believe Homosexuality is a SATANIC ABOMINATION.
And I'm never going to back down in this, because there will come a day, Alex, when you have to stand before God in his judgment and answer to HIM why you advocated and supported this. It may not matter what we say now, but there will be a day when your knee bends to Christ, not because you are his servant, but because YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE!
And as for your insinuation that all our proof comes from 'God says this, God says that', I have a news flash.
None of your "proof" supports your cause either.
JT
JT, I agree with you on most accounts, (all but one actually) but I have to quibble with you over homosexuality being more of a sin than anything else. You may view it as a more HARMFULL sin, (I don't) but the Bible makes it quite clear that in God's eyes, sin is sin is sin is sin. Seperate from that is the harm that sin does to others, which can very greatly in severity. But the Bible makes no distinction (as far as I know) between one kind of sin and another.
ReplyDeleteThe one exception to this would be the unforgiveable sin, which is basically refusing to accept Christ. This would obviously be unforgiveable, because it is directly refusing forgiveness.
Other than that, I definatly agree with you, especially about Alex's "proof".
Oh, and Christopher, just as with Alex, your own evidence works against you.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html
"...indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations."
That seems pretty clear to me, so does this:
"As Dr. Collins would agree, environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present."
In conclusion, the article (on the site YOU posted) says this:
Regarding the contributions of genetics to areas such as homosexuality, Dr. Collins concluded, "Yes, we have all been dealt a particular set of cards, and the cards will eventually be revealed. But how we play the hand is up to us."
Now, just so everyone knows, I do not condiser this proof that people are born with even the slightest pre-disposition to homosexuality, but I do think it shows that even your own sources are not entirely sure about the situation.
ReplyDeleteIt also shows that even those obviously biased sources acknowledge that homosexuality is a choice, not some path you are compelled by your DNA to follow.
The card medaphor works perfectly. He means you can choose whether or not to come out, not whether or not to be gay or straght. You still haven't told me how homosexuality is a dangerous cause or explain why my friends chose to be gay.
ReplyDeleteThese comments stack up too quickly for me to keep up with!!
ReplyDeleteBard; Okay, I see where you're coming from. So, when you say that you see no reason as for homosexuality itself to be outlawed, we're just pretty much against marriage? I know only a little about the Bible, but from what I've read, I don't know God's feelings on homosexuality in general, just homosexual sex.. So I don't know what to say in general. Lost my train of thought, sorry. Thanks, though. The government paying reverence to God as the source of marriage..? I think they will. I remember they tried to take God out of the pledge of allegience when I was still little... They didn't succeed, as far as I know. So I have hope for them if it is the right thing... Honestly, I am just super confused right now.
Christopher; THANK YOU. So much! Nice to see someone pointing out the accusations, if I may call them that, are getting us nowhere. Frankly, all the wrong/right is making me feel a little intimidated. Theocracy..? Never heard of it before... I'm not sure I could cope too well in one.
JT; Sorry, but I think I'm goin' with Einar on this point. Sin is sin. No sin is worse than any other, aside from blasphemy. This concept is what confuses me. If we abolish homosexuality/homosexual marriage because it is sin, then why not go against all sin? All sins, aside from the unforgivable, are equal. Which is what confuses me. We're trying to prevent homosexual marriage because it is sin. What about other sin? Which is why I brought up adultery..
Thinking about it... Homosexuality might be a subconcious decision of the soul/heart/whatever it is... But our concious decides whether to act upon these feelings or not. So as I see, it is at the same time chosen and not chosen... However, what you're discussing really only applies to those who have chosen...
Alex,
ReplyDeleteWe haven't told you why it is dangerous because those are your words not ours. None of us claim it is dangerous, just that it is a choice made by the individual.
Why your friend choose to be gay is nothing I have claimed, or care, to know. It is their choice and I wouldn't try to take it away from them.
Homosexual desire is caused by environment, not DNA. Maybe you think certain people are genetically pre-disposed to crime? Maybe I have a conservative gene and I just can't help rejecting liberal psychobabble when I hear it...don't judge me, it is not my fault.
And Christopher....from the link you gave us:
"No. There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply "genetic." And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public."
You are kind of getting it Muse...we are not trying to outlaw homosexuality. Saying that marriage is God's creation, therefore it should stay as God defined it doesn't make this nation a theocracy. As I am now saying for the 3rd time, the government has no business being invovled in marriage.
ReplyDeleteWell, kind of is better than nothing, I suppose. I think I understand what you're saying now, and have no further comment to add, unless I manage to confuse myself again... Which will probably happen here in the next five minutes or so, since I'm usually all questions and no answers, anyway. Thankies. :)
ReplyDeleteActually, Bard, I did say Homosexual Marriage is a dangerous cause, and that is most likely what Alex was referring to, sorry I confused you.
ReplyDeleteHomosexual Marriage is dangerous (aside from it being wrong because God said so) because it is a loophole for the Government to control religion. How is that you ask? Think about it. If the Government can decide that we Christians have to recognize something our faith calls an abomination (the Bible’s words) as genuine and Ok, then where does it end?
This whole mentality of protecting certain groups, (Gays, Blacks, Latinos, and so on) goes back to the Hate Crime laws implemented back in 1994. The whole idea that a crime becomes more sever when it is motivated by hate is ridiculous. In the eyes of the law, a crime is a crime is a crime (sound familiar?)
The law should not care if someone commits a crime because they hate someone’s color, or because they think their hairdo is terrible. The law should care about the crime, and that is it.
Once we decide a so called “hate crime” is more sever, we are saying that the hate adds…. (What’s a good word here, badness?) adds badness to the crime. It is (was) only a small step then, to say that that “badness” should be a crime on its own.
Now we have pastors who cannot speak against homosexuality because it would be a hate crime. No one has been arrested yet, as this is a new law, and the Liberals want to keep it quiet. Soon though, they will suddenly “Discover” that this law (The Matthew Shepard Act, officially, the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act or LLEHCPA) which protects gender or sexual orientation under the Hate Crimes Act, will make any pastor who preached against homosexuals to someone who then committed a crime against a homosexual, an accomplice.
They will then take things a step further, like they always do, proposing that inflammatory speech against protected minorities should be made a crime in itself.
Do you see now? All that was to say why the Homosexual cause is dangerous, they are not content to be social outcasts because of their choices. (Yet perfectly normal in the eyes of the law, unless you want to quibble about the don’t ask don’t tell act, which is TOTALLY necessary if you don’t want the moral of our hard fighting troops to go down the drain.)
They want to use the government to force us to validate them, to accept them. This is WRONG!
The fact that you can't accept a fellow human being is wrong, but God will tell you that on judgement day. You don't need to 'accept' gays, just let them be married! They don't want anything from you! They just want what's fair, but you for some reason don't want to give them that.
ReplyDeleteHm.
ReplyDeleteSorry if I didn't make myself clear with my earlier point. I ask forgiveness for saying that Homosexuality is a "greater sin" to God. I didn't mean to say that, but since it seems that I did, sorry.
ReplyDeleteYes, Einar and Muse, Sin is Sin to God. It's all damning, and all of it sends us to Hell without the blood of Christ to gain us our salvation.
What I am trying to say is that Homosexuality is unnatural for humans, and therefore SHOULD be considered by humans as a more "sinful" sin.
I hope I've made myself a bit clearer, again, sorry for any confusion.
This is all related to government being involved. Marriage is a covenant between a man, woman, and God. If homosexuals want to try and enter into that covenant I really don't care, but the government need not pass a law for that.
ReplyDeleteEinar does have a point, ultimately this relates to forcing somebody to recognize the homosexual relationship, to legitimize it legally.
There are things that would be impacted by homosexual marriage from a legal stand point. Adoption, social security benefits, and tax revenues to name a few. So acting like it doesn't consequences the rest of us is short sighted.
"The difference here is that blacks and women are ethnic and gender groups. They did not CHOOSE who they would be, and they are human, and deserve equal rights."
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, Mr. JT Norlander, but are you saying that homosexuals are inhuman?
So maybe you don't believe that they don't have the power to choose. Maybe we can disagree on that, as many do in science. But last I checked, it was never a question as to whether or not gays are human. Stop acting as if you're Almighty and above them. Everyone's a sinner.
Thank you Spastic! I still don't see how gay marriage impacts the rest of us, and I know that homosexuals are in the minority, but that doesn't mean that they don't deserve rights. Put aside relgion and look at them as people.
ReplyDeleteI am sure that JT didn't mean to imply that homosexuals are not human.
ReplyDeleteHomosexuals are humans choosing to act a certain way (we can't agree to disagree on this point as it is the root of the issue). By setting the precedent of giving rights to people because they choose to act a certain way we are harming all citizens. Once you legitimize this behavior others will immediately demand the same rights. So we will likely have requests for equal rights for the boy lovers, polygamists, consensual incest couples (like John and Mackenzie Phillips), and those who choose to love animals.
There are 3 basic points to this discussion:
1. Homosexuality is a behavior some choose.
2. God created marriage.
3. Government should not be involved in defining marriage.
Funny comment: "thank you so Spastic!" Hee hee. I just had to mention that.
ReplyDeleteI do agree there are many good points being tossed around here. Whether or not God disapproves of gay marriage, America is not a theocracy, and therefore we do not make religious teachings into law. You may be right, but frankly, it doesn't matter. The homosexuals have just as many rights to their orientation as an American Jew to his religion. It's a free country.
I definitely hope we can agree upon the fact that we are all sinners, (or at least make bad decisions), and that gays are humans. No more; no less.
And to Bard, I did not mean to give those links as to testify to my beliefs. I offered those links to educate both sides. You must notice that there were multiple articles, most agreeing that homosexuality is NOT a choice. And so far everyone has failed to answer this question:
If homosexuality was a choice, WHY WOULD SOMEONE CHOOSE TO BE GAY?
I'm going to repeat both for emphasis and to annoy you all that I think we can manage to agree to disagree about whether or not God disapproves of homosexuality. But you do realize that this country does NOT LEGISLATE BIBLE VERSES!!!
I am not sure I see why you are talking about theocracy and legislating bible verses? If you feel that way then you should agree that the government has no business being involved in marriage (homosexual or otherwise).
ReplyDeleteWhy would somebody choose to be homosexual? Well, I am sure there are many answers to that question, and I wouldn't presume to know them. Why does it matter? I didn't read all the articles, but the ones I read said things like, "Scientists believe..." and "Scientists theorize that...". I didn't see any that said, "Scientists have proven that sexual orientation is in this gene."
You are not annoying me, I enjoy discussing things and you generally make good points. God's disapproval of homosexuality was not the point of Alex's post. He claimed homosexual marriage was a civil right. My point is that marriage is not a civil right, it is a religious right.
If government shouldn't be involved in marriage, then why should gay marriage be illegal? So many conservatives want limited government, so why are there laws prohibiting things like gay marriage? If you don't know what a theocracy is, it can basically be a government recognizing God as the supreme ruler of it, or even a government ruled by religious teachings, such as the ones all of you suggest.
ReplyDeleteI do not think there are many reasons some might choose to be homosexual. Perfectly, I cannot think of one. I don't know if you know any homosexuals, but I do--some are relatives. And I HIGHLY doubt they would choose to be discriminated.
And marriage has become a civil right, whether it should be or not. There are atheists who get married, unless you didn't consider that. Christianity does not rule America, not directly at least. Thanks for responding. Maybe we'll eventually come to some conclusion.
If marriage is going to be a legal issue then it should be as God created it. If the government wants to rescind the legal aspect of marriage, then homosexuals will have many churches that will be more than glad (pun intended) to marry them.
ReplyDeleteYou know it is interesting how many people cry separation of church and state, and then claim homosexual marriage should be legal.
I know what a theocracy is, I was just saying I am not interested in one.
You may not think anyone would choose to be a homosexual. I might not think that anyone would choose to be a murderer, but that doesn't make it so, people choose it anyway. We all have freewill and can decide for ourselves what to choose. I choose to be a Christian even though it means discrimination. Do you really believe that nobody chooses anything that is difficult? If that were the case NOBODY would get married!
No, Christianity doesn't and shouldn't rule America. I am sure there are atheists that get married. Whether marriage is a civil right is something we really could debate. We have a right to pursue our religious faith as we see fit, but the government shouldn't be declaring what certain religious traditions are or are not.
How is separation of church and state not related to gay marriage? God didn't create marriage. Sorry. Marriage has been around for longer than Christianity. And you are comparing being a homosexual to be a murderer!? Oh, and poor you. You discriminated Christian. You do know that Christians make up 80% of America and it is the largest religion in the world? I am an atheist, and let me tell you about dscrimination! My own family just stopped talking to me for a little while when I annouced it. People are still a bit weirded out when I tell them.
ReplyDeleteUm, God created everything Alex, and was around before Christianity, and so was marriage for that matter.
ReplyDeleteI was only making the point that just because we do not understand WHY somebody chooses something doesn't mean they are not choosing (Christopher’s assertion). Murder is often hard to understand, that is why I used that, no other reason.
Discrimination doesn't require you to be a minority. I have been discriminated against for my beliefs many times.
I am sorry your family stopped talking to you.
I was just passing through when I noticed this post, and I was curious, can you explain to me why I choose to gay?
ReplyDeleteNo, Richard, I can't. You make your choices, not me, and I really don't want to know. Whether or not I know why you choose to be gay has nothing to do with the fact that you do choose.
ReplyDeleteDo you think you didn't choose to be gay?
I don't think, I know. I hated being gay and rejected myself for years, but eventually I decided to come out, and it was hard. If I could chose, I'd give anything to be straight. But I'm not, so I'll accept that. I had some friends who were like me, but listened to people like you. One of them tried to kill themselves. They didn't come close at all, and their parents didn't let the story out too much, but they made him take therapy to help him accept himself. Bard, before you start talking about people choosing to be gay, maybe you should take a moment and think.
ReplyDeleteThere you go. And if you don't believe a person with first-hand experience, well...I just don't know what you believe.
ReplyDeleteRichard, I'm glad you decided to be open about it. I agree. Discrimination against gays doesn't help them at all. If anything, it can ruin them. Trying to be something you're not for your entire life never works.
I don't know if Bard will believe him, but still. Bard your only response to his question was I don't know, don't you? You can't win a case with that argument.
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight...Richard says there is no choice, so, there is no choice.
ReplyDeleteThis post wasn't really about homosexuals choosing to be so, it was about homosexual marriage.
What if I say, "I don't know why, but I have always been sexually attracted to dogs. I hated being a caninesexual for many years, but eventually I decided to come out, and it was hard. If I could choose, I would be straight, but I just can't, it's not me."
Then people should be able to marry dogs? What about polygamy? What about your own children? What about trees? Where does it end?
Richard, I have thought plenty about it. I don't think homosexuality should be outlawed. I don't think it is right to hate people because they choose to live a homosexual lifestyle.
I don't see why nobody is interested in the solution of removing the government from the marriage equation. If the government wasn't regulating a religious right, you could get married no problem Richard. The problem is people are trying to get the government to change the definition of marriage.
No, actually Alex, my response was that why homosexuals choose to be homosexual is not relevant to the fact that they choose.
ReplyDeleteBut they don't choose. No one would choose and personally I cannot see how you could be that close minded.
ReplyDeleteMy mind is very open to the truth Alex, and that is that we can never know the reason why somebody chooses something. Surely your argument can't be that unless we know why somebody does something they had no choice!
ReplyDeleteThat would be like me asking you why Bubba doesn't like people with dark skin. You would not be able to tell me, maybe even Bubba would not be able to tell me, so would that mean he was just born that way? No, Bubba has a choice about his beliefs and his behaviors. We all do.
I am not saying we do not have desires we do not understand, we do, all of us. Every experience, every interaction with others, every environment we exist in introduces ideas and emotions that affect us from the time we are born. This is all true, but it is equally true that we have the freewill to choose our behavior and choose what we accept despite these influences.
I choose to be heterosexual and have only one lover, my wife. You might be shocked at some of the influences (environments and experiences) I have had to resist to make this choice. We all have a choice, and I say that with “first-hand experience” as valid as Richard’s.
Excellent post. I agree with you Alex- mostly. In fact, you know I do. But I still think that homosexuality is a choice...as many have stated before me. ;)
ReplyDeleteC'mon Liberty, tell us more about what you agree with. Maybe you found something we can all agree on.
ReplyDeleteI know of Liberty's beliefs and respect them. She is able to put her religious and personal opinions aside and look at the situation logically. I'm not trying to get you to accept homosexuals, I just want you to let them have their rights.
ReplyDeleteYes, Liberty is good at thinking logically.
ReplyDeleteHomosexuals have the same rights I do. If they want to get married they have to abide by the same government regulations I do. That is equality. There is not one set of rules for heterosexuals, and another for homosexuals, the law is the same for all of us.
What? There are laws that prevent homosexuals from getting married. Did I read that wrong?
ReplyDeleteThere are laws that define requirements for getting married. They do not say that you can't be homosexual and get married (I understand that is fairly common), they say that you may not marry the same gender as yourself.
ReplyDeleteWhich basically says that homosexual marriage is outlawed. Although they can marry someone of the opposite sex, they won't really be happy and it's not who they're meant to be with.
ReplyDeleteNo, it does not say homosexual marriage is outlawed. A homosexual man could marry a homosexual woman and it would be perfectly legal.
ReplyDeleteBut that doesn't make sense. Neither of them would want to do it or love eachother. It's just not what they're meant to be.
ReplyDeleteSo, now gays have gone from being genetically predisposed to loving their own gender, to being "meant" to be gay. At what point did it go from a random mutation that is obviously harmful to a species (homosexuals usually don't reproduce to pass their genes on) to something 'destined to be’?
ReplyDeleteYou can't even keep your own arguments straight, how can you be an atheist and then claim something was "meant to be”, or talk about how there is no God, and then tell me I will answer to him on judgment day for opposing homosexuality?
I think Bard was getting tired of your non-arguments, and was just seeing how long it would be before you realized he was just running you in circles. Personally, I do not blame him, you are insanely frustrating in your ability to ignore the arguments of other and re-state your previous declaration, only worded differently.
The simple fact is: we believe homosexuality is a sin because God says so. You believe (or claim to believe) there is no God, and that they are unable to help themselves. This will not change unless we decide God does not exist, or you decide he does.
As for Homosexual marriage, that is simple too: we believe in a Constitution that protects the religious rights of the people, which includes their not being forced to acknowledge anything as OK unless they want to.
You have stated that you consider the constitution old fashioned and outdated, and that we are behind the times. You then use this statement to justify brushing aside our beliefs in the name of social progress.
These things will not change either, unless either you decide to base your actions on thought, or we decide to base our actions on feelings.
I refuse to let my feelings control my actions, will you continue to let them control yours?
You have shown no real evidence, just verses. The judgement day thing was more of a joke. And by saying that homosexuals should not able to marry because it goes against you're religion, that means that you are also breaking the constitution because that says that we are forced to believe your religion. I'm not asking you to say it's okay, you just need to let them. Not like them, just let them. It's not hard. And actually, few Christians think the same way you do. The Christian church official opposes your arguments. They are mean to be homosexual because it is in their genetic code. Not hard to understand.
ReplyDelete"And actually, few Christians think the same way you do." I don't suppose you could provide a shred of evidence on this claim.
ReplyDelete"The Christian church official opposes your arguments." I am not sure what you even mean by this. What Christian church official?
"They are mean to be homosexual because it is in their genetic code. Not hard to understand." It is not that we do not understand, we understand what you are claiming, we disagree.
Let me explain it this way. If you are a citizen of the US, you may vote in elections just like I can. Maybe you are more interested in Germany politics and lifestyle. You might say, "It is unfair that you get to vote in elections in the US, because you like US politics and culture, but I prefer Germany. I do not have equal rights! I should be allowed to cast my vote on important German issues!" The thing is, we do have equality citizens, we can both vote in US elections and not in German elections. We do not have equality when it comes to matters of desire, you can’t pursue your interest in German politics, but I can pursue my interest in US politics. Our government provides equality related to legal rights related to marriage, it does not provide equality of desire related to marriage. Nobody, whether they are homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual is allowed to marry a person of the same sex (in most states) and that is equality.
Homosexual marriage is about social approval, not equality. It is about having their choice of lifestyle approved. The problem is that those promoting the homosexual marriage agenda are trying to force this approval down our throats via legal maneuvers and PC browbeating.
Before you suggest we change a law, you might want to make sure you understand why it was crafted as it was. There is one main reason government has been involved in marriage, the current structure and restrictions benefit the nation. Most states have similar requirements for marriage; no one may marry a close blood relative, a child, a person who is already married, or a person of the same sex. Same sex marriage has no benefit for the state, so the state does not promote it. As I have said before, I do not believe the state should be involved in marriage, but if it is going to be it should be structured much as it is now, for good reason. If you truly want the government uninvolved in religion you should be asking that they not be involved in marriage.