and Equal people are not Free.
If freedom reigns, some people will prosper while others will not.
If freedom reigns, people will like "Rachel" better than "Matilda".
If freedom reigns, your house will be bigger than my house.
If freedom reigns, you will fail and I will succeed.
If everyone is equal, you will be forced to do average when you should do fabulously.
If everyone is equal, we will be forced to like Rachel and Matilda the same.
If everyone is equal, you will be forced to have an average-sized house.
If everyone is equal, you will be forced to succeed whether you like it or not because I did.
Free people are not Equal;
and Equal people are not Free.
Wow, amazing post. This philosophy rings true politically as well, if you don't mind that I brought that up.
ReplyDeleteEven though this is very true if equality and freedom are to be persued completely, that doesn't mean we can't work for both, though. That's one thing everyone might want to keep in mind.
The whole point of the post was that you can't work for both, freedom means being allowed to make your own choices, equality means being forced to be like everyone else.
ReplyDeleteChristopher: Wow, thank you so much!!
ReplyDeleteI do agree with you to some degree; just because Freedom and Equality cannot be achieved 100% at the same time doesn't mean we shouldn't try in some ways. After all, people can all be *TREATED* equally (in terms of justice) and still be free.
Einar: Yes, you're right, but still in some areas Equality is definitely something that can and should be achieved.
~Kendra
I think there is a common misunderstanding of the difference between equality and sameness. We can have equality and liberty, but not sameness and liberty.
ReplyDeleteEquality says that we may all have a favorite color, liberty says we get to decide as individuals what that colors is, but sameness would dictate that your favorite color be purple.
Much of what is declared as fairness is sameness or political correctness. We ought to have equality, but sameness should be rebelled against always. Most folks who like the idea of having the same results for all (income, healthcare, retirement benefits, etc.) are not at all interested in putting forth the same effort and navigating the same risks as those who, through liberty, have worked to obtain that end result.
Equality and liberty provide opportunity that individuals may make use of as they see fit. Sameness and political correctness attempt to provide an end result regardless of the choices, effort, and creativity of the individual, at the expense of liberty.
Trying to achieve sameness and liberty at the same time is like trying to achieve hot and cold at the same time.
Great post Kendra!
Political corrective makes you act polite. Through your comments, Bard, you have show that you hate having to do just that. Somepeople believe in equal opertunity, and say that's what we have in america. But in truth, we don't. Somepeople will never have the same opertunities as others, as it's sad.
ReplyDeleteNo, Alex, political-correctness does not make you act politely. Political-correctness is what happens when everyone decides that it's the government's job to make sure you don't get your feelings hurt.
ReplyDeletePolitical correctness does not equate politeness, it is just a political culture.
ReplyDeleteAlex, you are doing exactly what I said, confusing equality with sameness. You and I will most likely not have the exact same opportunities, but we have equal opportunities (unless you are one of the many minorities that enjoy extra opportunities for no other reason than their minority status). The government was never supposed to insure the same opportunities, just the equal opportunity to pursue as we wish.
You and I both have equal opportunity to invest. If an investment comes along that requires a minimum investment of $20,000, and you have it while I do not, you may invest and I can't. That is still fair and equal for both of us, but not the same.
Okay, so a poor black kid with a single parent addicted to drugs and no education has equal opurtunities of an upper class rich kid with a private schooling and tons of parental influence? Sorry, doesn't add up. My father was very big on this issue and constantly talks about the unfariness of it because no one wants to give up wealth, but at the same time you feel bad for them. And Kendra, what's wrong with someone not wanting to be called a slang term? If you
ReplyDelete're gay, you don't want to be called a faggot. If you're black, you don't want to be called a negro. it's simply logic.
Yes, you have it exactly correct Alex, both the poor black kid and the rich white kids have equal opportunities (with the exception I mentioned above that allows certain groups of people to have opportunities others do not).
ReplyDeleteI am sure that you have heard stories of those who have created success by hard work and determination, even though they started with a disadvantage. Likewise I am sure you have also heard the story of the upper class rich kid who fails despite all of their "unfair advantage".
I do not feel bad for those who have challenges to their success, I feel bad for those who blame their lack of success on the external instead of being honest and accepting responsibility for themselves.
The problem with "fairness" is that is requires us to sacrifice liberty to attempt to achieve sameness. This not only can't be done, it shouldn't even be attempted.
I'm sorry Bard, but they don't. Yes, you have those rare stories, but that's what they are: rare stories and nothing more. The poor black kid is starting off with two strikes against him. It's going to take a lot more hard work for him to reach the level that the rich white kid is at. Fairness does not cause us to sacrifice liberty, but it does say that we all need to be starting a little closer to home plate so we all have the equal opertunity. Will everyone suceed? No, of course not. But they will all have had the chance. Not just a few of them.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Alex here.
ReplyDeleteAlex: I think if you actually saw it in action, you might change your mind.
ReplyDeleteKendra, I'm afraid it's the other way around.
ReplyDeleteVery few people in middle and upper classes understand what it's like for those in lower classes. Social mobility is not as simple as some idealists say it is. It's sad, but true.
Christopher/Alex: But how would you like it if you were doing very well in life, but the government comes along and says:
ReplyDelete"I'm sorry, mister, but Joe over there is only making about half of what you're making, so we're going to have to cut your salary so you'll be equal."
Alex, how exactly do you know these stories are rare? I do not know if they are rare of not, that doesn't decide what is right. We sacrifice liberty when the government steals my income to spend it on ineffective programs. Instead of having an abundance to share directly and help those that need it, my family finances have now been stressed. This kind of government "help" is a vicious circle that weakens those that could help others, turns them into new victims of the system, then says, "There is such a great need, we need to raise taxes!" and it starts all over again.
ReplyDeleteChristopher, the whole idea of class is contrived in this country. Social mobility is simple, not easy, but simple. I happen to be someone who has done it, and I know many others who have as well.
The argument that overcoming being poor must be too hard because not many folks do it is flawed. Not many people CHOOSE to do it because it is not easy. Struggle is not a bad thing, success need not occur in 30 minutes with two commercial breaks, sometimes it takes a generation (or more).
I'm not talking about giving them income, I'm talking about giving them equal opertunity, or at leats admitting that it's not equal, and yes the stories are very rare.
ReplyDeleteWe already have equal opportunity. Can you give an example where somebody does not have equal opportunity in this country? I do not mean same opportunity, I mean a situation where the law allows an opportunity for one citizen, but not the other, based on race, income level, family name, or some other individual characteristic.
ReplyDeleteAnecdotal evidence difficult to verify by nature, so without a study that follows up on a very large number of these, you can’t say with any certainty that these stories are rare in reality. I am assuming you haven’t done that. I never said that the scenario was common, just that it was possible and documented in some cases.
I'm not talking about legall. Tecnically, everyone can do anything. But it may be close to impossible for someone to, and they should have that. Everyone should have an equal chance, not all will suceed, but they will have had the chance. Communism says everyone will always be on the same level. I'm saying that we start out on the same level, and then make our own choices which affect what we do. And yes, I do know studies that I have done that, because that was what my father's organization does! The studies reported that economic groups, ethnic groups, people, ect. much more rarely succeeded as others did.
ReplyDeleteBelieve it or not, this is the subject that gets me mad. It's not abortion or religion or hating Obama or ones like so. It is this.
ReplyDeleteIt is so incredible what some wealthy Americans think about this subject!!! Practically all of white America thinks that those who are homeless try less hard than others. "It's not our problem. They're addicted. They never try. They're stupid. If they tried as hard as we white, hardworking, rich Americans, they'd have no problems." Sorry, that's not how it is.
What do you mean equal opportunity?!? Is it equal opportunity that Americans can be born into rich families, not try at all in life, then still be millionares until they die? Is it fair that some children can afford the best education in a heartbeat while others go to awful public schools and have NO chance of college? I don't know what the government is supposed to do about that. I'm not asking for communism. I'm not even asking for redistribution of wealth. I'm asking for the brighter side of America to get the picture!
I just want to add something to the basic idea of this post as well. Equity in my definition does not mean that everyone is the same. It means that everyone has equal opportunity. And maybe that is possible while still mantaining the freedom that all people deserve.
Yes, Alex, maybe their reports said that, but correlation is not the same as causation. The reports couldn’t really say WHY they didn’t succeed, or if they were able to after the report. So what you seem to be saying is that we all need to have the same chance at every type of opportunity? How to you expect to accomplish that?
ReplyDeleteI like what you said Christopher. I don’t think the paradigm in your 2nd paragraph is as prevalent as you imply, but if it were, I would feel the same as you.
Yes, it is equal opportunity for some to be born into wealthy families and others to be born into poor families. You see, those individuals will both have completely different opportunities no matter what you or the government do. Rich folks miss out on some opportunities poor folks have and vice versa. You may not value the opportunities afforded poor folks, but that doesn’t mean nobody else does. Kids born to poor families and go to awful public schools still have a chance to go to college, and many that have wouldn’t change a thing because of the strength of character that is created. Kid born into rich families may be millionaires their whole life, but that isn’t a guarantee of access to every opportunity, often the expectations of their rich families and society remove opportunities they desire.
The thing about opportunity is that they only have value if you want to take advantage of them. The opportunity to go to Alaska and hunt caribou and moose may be very valuable to many, but if you are a member of PETA, not so much. Who gets to decide who gets what opportunities, we can’t, and do not want to have them all. This nation was founded on leaving that up to us to decide and give it our best shot, because there really is no better way. Liberty IS equal opportunity.
You are wrong Einar. It is scietifically proven that kida born into bad families have automatic lower chances of being accepted into college. Colleges look at your schooling and back ground to decide whether or not to let you in, and if they see a bad school, they're not going to be as convinced. Also, most of your character and even IQ is developed in your early years and continues developing until adolscence where the development slows some.
ReplyDeleteEh? I am staying outa this one, tired of dealing with your idiotic non-arguments.
ReplyDelete'Sides, Bard is doing a fine job of pointing out what a fool you are, even if he is being more subtle than I would.
From now on, I am sticking to theological issues, which I feel better qualified to handle.
Sorry, Einar. I meant Bard. And it's okay. During my study of psychological, I learned that a defensive mecanism in arguments is to act as though someone is handleing it and to fling insults at the opponet. I consider it a complement that you find me so strong as to resort to basic defensive moves that "only a fool would use"! Thank you!
ReplyDeleteAnother basic defensive movement is "Fine, you're just giving up cause your wrong!" and it is often used by those who refuse to listen to any idea but their own, and do not provide any sort of real argument FOR that opinion.
ReplyDeleteDelude yourself all you want, I am sick of dealing with you.
I have a bossy personality. I'm trying to work on it. But I'm ignoring that for right now and telling both of y'all to BE CIVIL. Einar, c'mon, insult Alex in your head if you must but please try to keep these "debates" as gracious as possible.
ReplyDelete~Kendra
I don't mean to be less than civil, but Alex, please provide evidence of your "scientific proof".
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, there is no sceince involved here. It is mathematics because we are looking are trends and statistics. Einar, I'm not calling you fool. I don't think you are. But I would appreciate if you could please reframe from insulting me which you have done more than any other person here. It's really getting annoying.
ReplyDeleteYou said, and I quote, "It is scietifically proven". So, where is the science?
ReplyDeleteI was wrong. It was proven through studies and statistics, which could be considered math or science. On the other note, can you prove that it's not?
ReplyDeleteCan I prove that your statement is not scientific proof? It is not even a scientific statement.
ReplyDelete"It is scietifically proven that kida born into bad families have automatic lower chances of being accepted into college."
You will need to define what a "bad family" is and what "lower chances" means.
Statistics are data, by themselves they prove nothing. Data must be interpreted, and how you interpret it matters.
Furthermore, even if you could prove scientifically that kids born to "bad families" (whatever that is) do have lower chances of being accepted to college, you still haven't shown that as a lack of equality related to freedom. College is hardly the definition of opportunity.
I meant mathematic evidence when I wrote it, I misspoke. And I'm not talking about college. I'm talking about their life! Maybe they don't got to college, but their life has a good chance of not being too great and that may be partly because they had two strikes going in, which isn't fair. This basic human ethics, Bard. You have shown you have little to no concern for your fellow man, so debating with you is pointless. I will stop responding to your comments.
ReplyDeleteAlex, even mathematic evidence has sources and can be shared. I have simply asked that you share it, and you have not (can not?).
ReplyDeleteYou keep saying things like, "...their life has a good chance of not being too great and that may be partly because they had two strikes going in...". You need to follow that up with explaining how you define your terms ("good chance", "not too great", "two strikes going in", "basic human ethics"), otherwise there is no way to discuss, or even understand, your point.
You don't know me Alex, you have no way to judge my concern for my fellow man. Agreeing with everything you say is not a requirement for loving others.
If you want to quit because you can't make your point clear, go ahead, but don't blame it on me.
Unfortunately, the studies are not posted online, and unless you would like to come to Atlanta, I can't show them to you. You don't seem to have agreat concern for man, because you seem to be happy living in your bubble where everyone has an equal chance and you just "happened" to do well. But it's not your fault, their are plenty like you.
ReplyDeleteNo Thanks Alex, I have no interest in traveling to Atlanta to see that your studies don't prove your point.
ReplyDeleteI never said that anyone just "happened" to do well, I said that those that choose to do what it takes to do well, do well.
That is the fundamental difference between our beliefs on this. You seem to believe that we can force everybody to have the same opportunities, and if we do, they will be successful. I believe that those that will be successful will seek out and choose to take advantage of whatever opportunity they can find.
Like I said, you have made it clear that because I disagree with your point of view, that is proof that I do not have any concern for the wellbeing of my fellow man. Well, thankfully, that is not so.
Ok, I'm interested in this. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that people must have equal opportunity in life. This means that all kids must have access to equivalent quality education. It means that kids shouldn't have to grow up in homes that are not conducive to learning and pursuing dreams. That means no drugs or alcohol or poverty. Perhaps all kids should spend their time in government-run day-care facilities between the ages of 2 and 5, or something like that. In school, classes must not move through the subject material unless all the members of the class understand it. That way, kids are neither left behind or discriminated against by being stuck in special ed courses. There must be medications availible free to all kids who need them to do well in school.
ReplyDeleteThe list could go on and on. Why don't you guys add some things to the list. But tell me this, how would you expect these things to be put in place? How would we get rid of drugs, for example. Should couples take mandatory counselling or classes before having kids? We have health classes in all schools for a similar reason. What aspects of equality should be most important? We already have laws which theoretically prevent companies and schools from discriminating against people depending on their race.
I've always wanted to work at a sushi resturant, and I've applied at a few. But in all honesty, what are my odds of getting a job at one? They don't want to hire a white girl. They want to hire an asian. Is this discrimination? Maybe. I don't blame them, they have their traditional image to consider, and I don't think people should be penalized for having ideals. I was sort of chuckling to myself after a conversation with an asian waitress at a sushi bar. She didn't know how to use chopsticks, while I can use them with ease from years of practice. So perhaps I am even more qualified than that gal, but still, she would get the job, because she's asian. I think there is a place in this country for everyone. They won't be the same places, but there still are places.
You know? One of the most sure-fire routes out of poverty is quite simple. You'll even get paid for it. You join the military. The military will accept all people, give them the training they need, and take care of them. Having time served in the military looks attractive on many applications to colleges and jobs, and the military usually supplies scholarships as well. You don't have to be rich. People as young as 17 can enroll in programs which will garantee them a place as an officer.
Lissy: You're wrong. The military will always leave you poorer than an honest career of not killing those your government says to kill. Because that is what the military is and does.
ReplyDeleteKendra: No one is ever free. We are either slaves to Christ or the Devil. We are not free. We are completely equal under the law.