We're probably all familiar with the famous Scopes Trial, but most people know the "story" from the play Inherit the Wind, which was made into a movie in 1930. Unfortunately, that movie broadcasted a stereotype of Christians and Evolutionists that is not always accurate. Whenever anyone speaks out either for Creationism or Evolutionism, but especially Creationism, their words are placed in the context of Inherit the Wind. Whether you know it or not, you're playing a character in the play, and the casting has already been done. But which part do you play? The idiot, or the intelligent one?
Briefly, let's go over the story of the play. It centers around a handsome young teacher of science named Bert Cates. He's a charming and wonderful man and teacher, but he's jailed for violating the Tennessee state law by teaching Evolution. Bert is also in love with the wonderful Rachel Brown, the daughter of an influential town minister, Reverend Jeremiah Brown.
Sorry about all the names, here's a little chart to help you with them:
Defense/Evolutionists:
1. Bert Cates
2. Henry Drummond
Prosecution/Christians:
1. Matthew Brady
2. Reverend Brown
Reverend Brown is, in the words of Phillip Johnson, "a vicious bigot with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, whose practice of Christian ministry seems to be limited to cursing people like Bert and threatening them with damnation."
Rachel is a slightly spineless girl who loves Bert, but urges him to stop teaching Evolution to avoid making trouble for himself in the small Tennessee town full of religious prejudices.
Bert's trial because a media field day when a lawyer named Matthew Brady offers to be the prosecutor. Brady, a former presidential candidate, is a huge antievolutionist. He gets a hero's welcome from the town, as a clever and sarcastic journalist named Hornbeck comes into the picture. He gets lots of opportunities to exercise his lovely sarcasm as the ignorant townspeople do weird things such as break into singing "Give Me That Old-Time Religion".
Prosecution lawyer Brady makes phony-sounding speeches and eats all the time like a glutton, showing himself to be an arrogant old fool. He also gets poor Rachel to divulge Bert's secrets, planning to use her as a prosecution witness against Bert, whom she is now engaged to.
It is soon announced that the famous Henry Drummond is coming to be Bert's defense attorney. Drummond is the typical viewer favorite, the fearless advocate fighting for justice despite the hopeless odds.
From the moment the trial begins, the townspeople show their ignorance and hate for anything unreligious through loud comments from the audience, which defense lawyer Drummond counters with witticism. Brady tries to score points for himself, but his efforts backfire every time.
The rolls of the play/movie couldn't be clearer: all virtue, humor, and intillegence are on the side of Bert and Drummond, and all malice and foolishness are on the side of Brady and Reverend Brown.
Despite the fact that the defense is intelligent and virtuous, their legal position is pretty impossible. Bert admits teaching Evolution, which is illegal in the town. Brady proves the point of Bert's guiltiness further by unnecessarily calling poor Rachel to the stand, and having her admit all of Bert's thoughts that he so kindly shared with her. Bert then shows his character to be even more impeccable by forbidding Drummond to upset Rachel with cross ex.
After some interesting back-and-forth efforts from both parties, Drummond always being the intelligent and descent one, Brady decides to take the witness stand himself, sure that he can stand up under Drummond's cross ex and defeat the unbeliever.
Drummond skillfully takes advantage of Brady's arrogance. He lulls him into a clever false sense of security with some easy and irrelevant questions, then stuns him by pointing out that the biblical patriarchs did their "begetting" by sexual intercourse.
Apparently, Brady had never considered that embarrassing but undeniable fact, and he blurts out that the Bible calls sex "original sin". The point being is that Christians are party poopers and sticks who want to abolish sex. (Very not true by the way...lol :P)
Drummond shows his genius further throughout the cross ex, and eventually has Brady so confused and nonsensical that even his supports mock him. The moral victory goes to Drummond and Bert, the defense.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with the legal side of the trial, so the jury still finds Bert guilty. Bert also refuses bribes to keep quiet about Evolution, instead vowing to continue to speak up for truth and freedom.
Brady tries to redeem himself with a final speech, but is so upset by his own incoherent rant that he has a stroke and dies on the spot.
Rachel tells Bert that she will start thinking for herself, which implies that she will believe with Bert in Evolution instead of following her father's way of thinking.
The two lovers decide to leave the prejudiced little town and get married.
As the play ends, Drummond stands alone in the courtroom, reflecting on the day. He picks up a copy of Darwin's Origin of Species and a copy of the Bible. He balances them in his hands, one book in each hand, as if he were a scale. Finally, he half smiles, shrugs, and puts the two books together in his briefcase.
Symbolically speaking, this tells us that the Bible and Darwin and balance each other--that is if we allow Drummond to do the balancing. This is roughly how people claim to be both Evolutionists and Creationists.
And that's how the play Inherit the Wind goes.
However, the actual Scopes Trial was very different.
The real trial was not a serious criminal offense, but a symbolic confrontation engineered to put the down of Dayton, TN on the map. No joke. That's what it was.
The Tennessee legislature funded a new science education program, and to assure people that science wouldn't be used to discredit religion, a clause was added to the bill forbidding the teaching of Evolution. They also predicted that the law would not be enforced.
The American Civil Liberties Union wanted to test this, though, so they set up the Scopes Trial.
That's basically all it was. There was never any danger of the defendant going to jail, nothing like that.
Honestly, though, the actual trial barely matters compared with the impact the play had.
Inherit the Wind likes to portray life a lot like the story of Cinderella. Once upon a time, there were a bunch of mean Christians who just liked to oppress people and prevent people from thinking, a lot like the stepmothers and stepsisters in Cinderella. Freedom from this comes through Darwin/the Fairy Godmother. Now that the people/Cinderella are free, they are not going to give the Christians/stepmother any more opportunities to enslave them/her.
Here's the story told another way, directly from Phillip Johnson:
"That memory has stayed with me, and shows that there may be more than one way to interpret the play. Let me retell the story with just a tad of artistic license.
"A brilliant young teacher develops a following because he has exciting ideas that open up a new way of life. His friends and students love him, but the ruling elders of his community hate the very thought of him. These elders are themselves cruel hypocrites who pile up burdens on the people and do not lift a finger to help them. The elders rule the peopel by fear and are themselves ruled by fear. They substitute dogmas and empty rituals for the true teaching they once knew, which commands truth and love as its frist principles.
"The elders want to destroy the teacher who threatens their control over the people, but his behavior and character are so exemplary that they can find no fault to justify condemning him. They plan to trap him by convincing one of his closest friends to betray him. Eventually they are able to arrange a rigged legal proceeding and get a guilty verdict. Their victory is empty, however. The teacher wins even when he apparently loses, and he sums up his teaching in these words: 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.' "
That sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it? No one is saying that Bert Cates is Jesus, but it does give you something to think about. The seemingly antibiblical play achieves its moral effect by borrowing themes from the Bible.
Inherit the Wind is truer than its authors knew. There is nothing really wrong with the story, either. It's just risky when you have to cast the rolls.
Here's where Owning the Microphone comes in. In the play, as the jury comes in to give the verdict, a character called "Radio Man" is introduced. He talks into his little microphone which broadcasts onto the radio. Radio Man relates everything that happens in the courtroom for the world to listen to. There is only one microphone, and the one wielding it controls what the people hear and therefore believe.
This is why the actual Scopes trial hardly matters; the writers of Inherit the Wind owned the mic.
Today, when creation-evolution conflicts arise, whoever is holding the media microphone casts the roles of hero and villain. What this has meant for a while now is that the Darwinists--who currently hold the legal and political power--appear before the microphone as Bert and Drummond, while the defenders of creation are cast the role of Brady the pompous fool and Brown the despicable bigot.
You see, no matter what actually happens in real life, the story will be told by whoever holds the microphone. It's pretty much impossible because of this to get newspapers to admit that there *ARE* scientific problems with Darwinian Evolution that are independent of what anyone thinks about the Bible. Even if the interviewer really "gets it" during an interview, 90% of the time by the time the article gets checked over by the editors, it comes out with the same formula as always: Christians are trying to substitute Genesis for the science textbook.
That's honestly not the case, however, but until someone a little less biased gets a hold of the microphone, that's how the story will be portrayed. It's kind of an uphill battle because the mic-holding Darwinists can portray their opponents are religious dogmatics regardless of what the opponent is actually saying.
If people try to object to teaching philosophical doctrine as scientific fact, the mic-holders say that they are attempting to stop students from learning.
If people try to tell the other side of the story and bring out evidence that textbooks ignore, the mic-holders accuse them of trying to insert religion into science curriculum, therefore violating the Constitution.
The Rule of the Microphone: "Heads we win, tails you lose."
It's really hard to make any scientific, moral, or political progress playing by those standards and rules, but there is a way to do it.
Step One: Learn to Detect Crap.
Beginning August 15, I'm going to show you how. Using logic, let's turn up our "Baloney Detectors".
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First off, I think you should reread Inherit the Wind. Actually it was written in the 60s because of McCarthyism. The point of the book is to not be afraid to say what you believe in, whether it's creation or evolution. And in the end Rachel says that she will still remain a creationist, but she understands evolution now and isn't as ignorant about it as her father. And it isn't about "owning the microphone", there aren't that many flaws with the theory of evolution. There are tons of flaws with creation however. You still haven't answered my question, are you a supporter of Sarah Palin? I'm really curious.
ReplyDeleteMost of what you said is basically oppinion, so I'm not sure what I can say there. Regardless, the point about owning the microphone is still something to think about.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I keep forgetting about your Sarah Palin question!
In general, I greatly respect Sarah Palin and think she is a person of good character and wise choices. She accomplished a lot being the youngest and first female govenor of Alaska. She handled the media with admirable class even when they were quite rude to her.
I agree with her views on crime, government reform, gun control, and health care. I strongly agree with her on abortion, budget, economy, immigration, education, environment, and foreign policy.
Of course, I don't idolize her by any means, but I think she's a respectable person and would have made a good VP.
~Kendra
I'm not even going to respond to the Sarah Palin thing, but I will say this: what parts of my comment were based on opinion? I'm not saying it wasn't, I'm just cruious as to what? And would you support Sarah Palin if she was the republican canidate for the 2012 presidential race?
ReplyDeleteLooking back at your first comment, I don't know what I was talking about oppinion...wow...maybe I was reading the wrong comment. I have no idea. Sorry!
ReplyDeleteI do not think that's the point of the book/play/movie, otherwise things, circumstances and people would have been portrayed differently. I'm sure that's part of it, but mostly I think people wanted to put Christians/Creationists in the category of religious, dogmatic, antiscience bigots so they wouldn't have to deal with/listen to them. That's definitely a little strong, but I honestly think that was the basic intention.
There are flaws in Evolution, whether you see them or not. I'm definitely not claiming that Creation is without it's "flaws", either, though, don't get me wrong.
If Palin runs in 2012, I plan to be among her supporters, and voters, in fact, because I will be eighteen by that time.
At the time in the 60s, McCarthysim was the goal of the play, not evolution vs creationism. Plus, at the time many people were not evolutionist, so there was no reason for that. The authors of the play specifically stated that the play was an analogy for McCarthyism. Do you know what McCarthyism is? I also support Palin for 2012 for the republican ticket because if she makes it because if she makes it, Obama would be able to crush her no sweat.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of the real goal of the play, it's easy to see the actual impact, which is the important thing. Whether the play meant to or not, it portrayed Evolutionists as the intelligent, virtuous ones and the Christians and the ignorant bigots, and that's what Evolutionists like to remember.
ReplyDeleteYes, I know what McCarthyism is. The play made it's point in that way, too, but the bigger takeaway from the play is what I said before.
Lol, I'm not going to be drawn into an ad hominem argument, but I will say this: is the canidate who can only win by having a "weak" opponent really the one you want to vote for?
~Kendra
I don't think your right about that steriotype. I mean, Reverend Brown was obviously like that, but not Brady. He was ecven the one to stop the reverend during the prayer meeting. I think my favorite line from the play was when Brady asked Darrow why he moved on from him and Darrow replies "Or was it you who moved on by standing still?" For me that pretty much sums up the evolution debate. It's like gay marriage. History was told us that predjudices and racisms eventually die and the mnority will become accepted. I think in the future the US, will be fully accepting of gay marriage and the homosexual community. What's your opinion on gay rights? And I see your point about Obama, but that's not the only way he can win. I think he could win if he had a great oppenet. I mean look, he beat John McCaine! But I meant that this way there will be no suspense and Sarah Palin as president may truly bring down the Republican Party.
ReplyDeleteI am opposed to gay marriage. For one thing, the Bible and God are both against it, and aside from that, the physical affects of gay marriage aren't exactly the best. Marriage was created to be between a man and a woman, and created that way for a reason.
ReplyDeleteI think both democrats and rebublicans agree that beating John McCain was not exactly a great showing of victory. While I respect McCain's position, he was not the best canidate and he was not a very strong or charismatic person.
How is the bible against it besides Leviticus 20:13 which really says nothing about marriage. And plus, what are the physical effects? If gays are allowed to be married, how would that affect us? Life would go on, people would be happy and there would be one less problem in the world. Who created marriage? And what's the reason that it should only be between a man and a woman? Are the sinful? Then why did God create them? I think John McCaine was actually a veyr good canidate. He was a war hero, he has had a lot of expierence, and he's a pretty nice guy. Some conservatives didn't like him because they felt he wasn't "hard core" enough. See, that's the problem with the GOP. In an effort to gain more votes, they accepted some backwards policies that will eventually fail.
ReplyDeleteYou've really not noticed that the Bible is against homosexuality? It's the reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah.
ReplyDeleteI haven't done any extreme research, but I'm pretty sure it's unhealthy to have sexual intercouse with someone of your same gender.
Many and woman are sinful, but not because of that reason. God created us basically because it was just him and Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the world, and he got kind of bored. So he created us and the beautiful world around us. He wanted us to always do the right thing, but he decided to give us the choice instead of forcing us to. Adam and Eve blew it.
Well, you think McCain was a good canidate, that's your oppinion. I supported him, but I still think he was a pretty weak opponent and I wasn't surprised at all when Obama won.
So you think homosexuality is a choice and that they were created as a resukt of sin? That's probably one of the most backwards and prejudice things I've ever heard. But this isn't a fight you can win. Eventually, gays will have full rights as we do. And they're form of intercourse isn't physically or emotionally bad for them. Most gays don't act like they're protrayed in movies or tv shows. They act completely normal. And I don't think that was the reason he destroyed Sodom and Gomorah. I was more of their wickness as a cities. Both were full of prostitutes and anger. Plus, I also believe that was more figurative than literal, so that's not even a very good argument.
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly what I believe. Call me prejudiced if you want to, but it's what I believe is the truth. I also believe that homosexual people will have the same rights as we do, I just don't believe that's the right direction.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you're right, not all homosexual people act the way they're portrayed in movies, but I happen to know a few, and, well, they act fairly similar.
You don't think that's the reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah? Have you read the Bible? Seriously? Certainly that wasn't the *only* reason, but it played into it. Yes, there were a lot of prostitutes, and most of them were not of the female persuasion and most of the people who went to them were male, which adds to the homosexuality of the cities.
Just because you "believe" it was more figurative doesn't make it not a very good argument. I diagree with a lot of the things you say, and I don't tell you that you're using bad arguments.
Just to be clear, you believe that homosexuality is a choice and that homosexuals were created as a result of sin? I wasn't sure if that was the thing you were referring to. Once we clear that up, we can start debating. Yea!
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe the homosexuality is a choice. No, I don't believe they were created because of sin. They were *never* created. People make themselves who they are.
ReplyDeleteHow can you say that? No one would choose to be homosexual! It's not a choice! Why would someone choose to be gay? You can't marry, some people hate you, you're given odd looks, and the whole wolrd thinks your different. Just answer me that one question: why would someone choose to be gay?
ReplyDeleteIt's beyond me, but I can tell you one thing for certain: God made everything that is unchangable. God did not make homosexuality. Therefore, homosexuality is changeable, or a choice.
ReplyDeleteWho says God didn't make homosexuals? No one would choose to be gay. No one and the fact that you think so is by far the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. It beats anything I've said on here by a long shot.
ReplyDeleteOkay.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I was wondering, will you participate in the Followers Say...specialty thing? It would be a better way for you to express your opinions more fully than just in comments, and maybe it would help me and other people understand your point of view even better.
I'm not sure if I will or not. I still can't believe that you think homosexuality is a choice. Who says God didn't make homosexuals? Do you consider them "wrong"?
ReplyDeleteI hope you do!
ReplyDeleteI don't think this debate is going anywhere. I've given my opinion, and you've said you think it's wrong. It seems a bit pointless to just do that over and over again.
I haven't just said "you're wrong" I've also given my opinion. If you want to here my opinion, go to my blog: leftsideview.blogspot.com. You still didn't answer if you thought gays or homosexuality was "wrong".
ReplyDeleteCan I break into this debate for a little ol' comment? Inherit the Wind might have been biased and incorrect, but that's how history goes. It could have been the same for either side. Great post!
ReplyDeleteAlex: You already know my answer, and I already know your reaction, but okay, you asked for it. My opinion on homosexuality: Yes, it is wrong.
ReplyDeleteChristopher: Thank you very much! I've missed your insight lately.
How is it wrong? Yes, it's different, but wrong? What if you had kids and one of them utrned out to be gay? Would you say "Sorry, but you're wrong, and I never will really accpet you." Or will you be like Dick Cheney and have a complete change of heart?
ReplyDeleteMy child would never be homosexual. Just believe me.
ReplyDeleteNot to seem rude, but I'm finished talking about this. The debate isn't going anywhere, and KnightWing is right, you might do well to tone it down a little when debating this sort of thing.
If you participate in the Followers Say...thing, you might get a better chance to explain your views...*hint hint* Lol :)
Why would your child never be homosexual? I know there is at least one person in your family who is, even if they're in the closet. Saying that your child would never be a homosexual is ridiculous and laughable. Any intelligent person would tell you that there's always a chance and that it's not a choice.
ReplyDeleteMy child would never be homosexual because my child is going to be raised in the right way. What on earth makes you think that someone in my family is just in the closet? How would you know? What kind of statistics are you relying on? *That's* what's ridiculous and laughable. I am an intelligent person, and I say YES, it is a choice.
ReplyDeleteI misspoke, ask any WELL INFORMED person and they will tell you it's not a choice. One in ten people is gay, and being gay isn't about being raised the right way, it's just how you're made! You can be a great parent and still have gay kids. I not saying your kids will be gay, there's just a 10% chance. And I don't mean your immdiante family. Asuming that you have at least twenty people in our family, at least one of them is gay. Maybe not, because statics aren't always for ceretain, it's just very likely.
ReplyDeleteOh, so, you don't really mean that you "know at least one person" in my family is gay? I just want you to know that you're making the same mistakes you accuse me of: relying on slightly faulty information, and then changing your claim.
ReplyDeleteI know I said I was going to stop debating, but I think I should show you that I do know what I'm talking about.
ReplyDeleteYou say that 10% of people are homosexual. More recent studies actually show that only 1 to 2 percent of women are, and 3 to 4 percent of men.
The studies that I based that claim on were very recent and I still stand by that statement as does most of America. And in your entire family line, at least one person is gay and I am sure of that.
ReplyDeleteHey Kendra, Boy do I love this blog, just wanted to say that your post was excellent and I plan on participating in the Followers thing (If I can)
ReplyDeleteI have something already written up I would love to add to this discussion, but my arguement turned out to be a bit long. Would you like me to post it here or wait till the followers thing?
*Looks at Alex Floyd and cracks knuckles*
I'd rather read it now, but it's up to Kendra Logan to decide. Are you going to debate evolution, or homosexuality? Please don't tell me you're another one of those idiots who believe it's a choice because I'm really fed up with those kind of people right now.
ReplyDeleteBoth actually, many don't think it, but they are related.
ReplyDeleteNo, I can see how people like you would think they're related. I've talked to many people recently who have been talking about how homosexuals are damned to hell and that it is a sin and such. Go ahead, I've heard about all of the different angles.
ReplyDeleteHomosexuality is a sin, but is no worse or no better than any other sin. In Romans 3:23 the Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
ReplyDeleteNot just non-Christians, not just pagans, ALL.
The difference is that when a Christian sins, they ask for God's forgiveness, and receive it because they have accepted that Christ died to pay the price they could not.
Homosexuals refuse to acknowledge their sin (obviously, or there would be none), and that is why, unless they repent, they WILL go to hell. Just like anyone else who refuses to repent for their sins. This is not something that is restricted to Homosexuals; ALL sinners will go to hell unless they repent.
As far as Homosexual marriage goes, I couldn't care less to tell the truth. Marriage is not something that should be the concern of the government, if they want a marriage "contract" like a straight person, there is no law stopping them. However, there ARE laws against forcing your views on others. I believe that Homosexual relationships are wrong, and I should not have to recognize such a relationship as "normal." It isn't about being able to have a contract, it is about forcing people to validate their lifestyle, and that I will not do.
As for Verses concerning Homosexuality:
Leviticus 20:13
1 Timothy 1:8-10
Jude 1:7-16
Not to mention all the different verses, some of them directly quoting Jesus, which say that God made us Male and Female for a reason.
Oh, *sigh*, I had such high hopes for you. I was hoping for a more original argument, but I guess That's just too mcuh to ask for from people like you who view it as a sin. There are many homosexuals who do view themselves as a sin thanks to the crap that you spread around. They try the supposed "gay to straight" therapy, but it never works. The APA confirmed that this process does not chnage your sexuality no matter how hard you try or believe.
ReplyDeleteAlex, when Kendra was talking about owning the Mic, she neglected to mention that evolutionists are not the only ones with a monopoly on the sound system.
ReplyDeleteLiberals have been tooting the homosexual horn for years, broadcasting the misconception that you are “born” with a certain sexual preference.
This is simply untrue, no one is born preferring one sex over the other, an individual’s preference is shaped entirely by his experience in this world, and almost all attraction for the same sex is developed during the teenage years, when a young person’s sexuality is new and still developing.
This would not be possible in a pre-fall world, where a man’s desire was only for the woman who would become his wife, but after the fall, Satan was free to corrupt and pervert the good things God had created.
The aforementioned problem would not be nearly so severe, were it not for another misconception that could be called the motto of homosexuals, liberals, and evolutionists everywhere. “Follow your Heart”
This is the idea that if something feels right, it is right, thus, when a young person begins to find they are attracted to their own gender, that attraction is reinforced instantly with the idea that it must be right simply because it exists. Then the young man or woman instantly begins to feel that they are right to feel this way, they begin to act on it, even if only in thought.
Do you know where the problem was, where the sin occurred?
When the individual assumed that the feeling was ok because it felt right “in their heart”.
The Bible has a lot to say about the heart, or as it is more commonly know to Christians, the Flesh.
ReplyDeleteJeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
The flesh is simply but, our emotions, our desires. Before the fall, they would have desired only what was right and proper, but now, they want what they want with little regard for right or wrong.
FEELING those desires is no sin, during one lifetime, the flesh will most likely desire to do just about everything under the sun. But giving in to those desires, even in thinking they are right, that is sin.
Evolution teaches that there is no higher power, that Humans are simply the top dog in the junkyard, and that there is no morality aside from what we deem right.
Thus, Evolution takes away the possibility of Absolute Truths, giving men the excuse to do whatever they want.
You ever try to play a game with no rules? Not much fun are they?
Unless you believe in God, Christ, and the Bible, none of this will matter to you, and there is no point in reading further. Proverbs says not to argue with a fool in his folly, not to debate on his terms. To debate without the assumption of Absolute Truths is not to debate at all, since anything goes.
As a young teenage man, my flesh desires to have sex with every beautiful young lady I see, but as a Christian, it is my responsibility to shun that feeling, and to acknowledge it for what is, a carnal desire that has no place in a servant of God.
But if I were to so much as THINK it was ok, were to even fantasize about committing such an act, Now that would be sinning.
In Mathew 5.28 Jesus says: But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The issue is not whether or not people gain an actual desire for their own gender, the issue is that people like you say it is OK for them to pursue it. History has already proven that anyone can feel anything, the desire to rape children, or to wipe out an entire race. But you don’t say that is Ok just because it is in their heart.
I personally know several REFORMED homosexuals, who will tell you that they had a choice, and they chose wrong, because those who have the Mic told them they had no choice.
Then they met someone, a Christian friend, or a pastor, who told them that to follow whatever our heart desires makes us no more than an animal, and that to do what you know is RIGHT (based on an Absolute Truth from the Bible) regardless of what you feel, is what is truly right.
Mathew 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, and slanders.”
There is a choice, without a choice, we are doomed.
I am tempted to have sex with women regardless of marriage or anything else, yet I do not. The homosexual who desires to have sex with those of his own gender should do the same.
First off, I feel like I should explains oemthing, it is possible for your sexuality to change over time. Having siad that, you cannot do that out of your own will. Your "reformed" homosexuals either had a change in sexuality, where bisexual and just choose to take on the hertosexuality part of their personaltiy, were so conivnced that they would be damned that they ignored their won sexuality and forced themselves to at least pretend they were straight, or they just pretended to change so they would be accepted. Homosexuality is not a choice, a sin, or something to be ashamed of. It's idots like you who cast them out and believe ignorant lies, that make me anger and sick. I know homosexuals and they are some of the nicest people I know. They are caring, kind, and don't try to "make a move on you". And actually, the conservtives have quite a large mic. Every heard of FOX? Rush Limbaugh? Shawn Hannity? Some pretty big speakers. Even CNN has tried to be less biased. Liberal actually have a very small mic.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, there is frankly no way to prove who REALLY has the Mic. I believe it is the Liberals/Evolutionists, you believe it is the Conservatives/Christians. And obviously neither of us will change our mind.
ReplyDeleteOn that, we had best agree to disagree.
In relation to your arguments FOR Homosexuality, what on earth are you basing your claim that people are born that way ON? What are you basing your declaration that Homosexuality is fine and dandy on?
I have given verses from a book written by the One and Only God. I have explained why I believe homosexuality is a sin, and additionally, how it is NO BETTER AND NO WORSE THAN ANY OTHER SIN.
When I first saw your posts, I had hoped you might be someone actually open minded enough to receive logical arguments and consider them. But now I see that the whole time your argument has been nothing but a few statistics from an undisclosed source, and a repeated mantra of “It’s not a sin! It’s not a sin!”
WHY NOT?
As I said before, because you believe that humans are the best thing this universe has to offer, and thusly you can decide what is right or wrong just as well as me.
I KNOW that we are very nearly the worst this universe has to offer, and I get my info on what is right or wrong from the Creator of All Things.
Where do you get yours? Your own mind, which you, in your arrogant foolishness, think to be quite adequate for plumbing the depths of morality.
I have one last Bible verse for you, and then I am done with this discussion (You had the right idea all along Kendra)
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
See that? The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of knowledge. Without it, you have none at all.
Considering the distain you have already shown for God’s commands, it is quite obvious to me that you do not fear the Lord in the least, even if you do consider yourself a Christian.
Just like a liberal (which by now I am quite sure you are) you are quite ready to declare things as the truth without anything other than good rhetoric to back them up (PLEASE don’t bring up your statistics, those things are about as worthless as road apples) but when someone brings a comprehensive argument your way, you all but stuff up your ears and chant “Nananana! Not listening to the fanatical religious bigot!”
In that case, I wish you a good day, and hope that someday you will ears to hear.
I will be praying for you, whether you like it or not.
Without real information (not verses from a book) we would be no where. I have scineticifc evidence and all you have are verses that you interpret and your view of a God who should be feared and loved. I disagree. I think you were the one who plugged your ears. I used to be on your side, but then my eyes were opened to the truth. This is a battle you cannot win. Eventually, homosexuals will have their rights and people like you will be looked at as prejudice and ignorant. I have opened my ears to hear, but all I have heard are verses and your ridiculous beliefs. You say your a writer, but how can someone write and make people think if they're own beliefs are of prejudice and irgonance? Good day to you, even though you probably won't read this because you gave up. That's a hrash way of putting it, but you did.
ReplyDeleteI hope this discussion is not over.
ReplyDeleteI would tend to agree with most of the things that Kendra and Einar have said. I am a Christian, but all Christians do not think identically, so I hope my comments will illustrate some things the others did not.
For me it seems like a waste of time to debate whether God is against homosexuality or not. I think He makes it clear in many ways that it is a choice contrary to His will, which is the basis for all sin.
As for scientific proof of people being born homosexual, Alex, you have not offered any. You have thrown out some percentages without referencing where they came from, but that is not any scientific evidence. Even the theory of evolution paints homosexuals as a doomed mutation in the competition of survival of the species.
Rights are a different matter. There are rights that are given by God and then there are rights that are given by the state. God not has given homosexuals any rights. How can I say this? I say it because God does not recognize homosexuals, he recognizes people. He has given people the right to free will, which means we have the right to CHOOSE a homosexual lifestyle. We have the right to call ourselves homosexuals just like we have the right to call ourselves god's. The thing is calling ourselves something doesn't make it so and just because we choose it doesn’t mean it is good and right (some people choose to murder and rape).
I have a tendency to agree with Einar's thinking that the state shouldn't have anything to do with marriage of any sort, since that is a covenant between people (and in my case God). On the other hand, I believe that the reason our government has something to say about marriage is that it was founded by Christians. They strove to insure we had the freedom to choose our own religious beliefs, but this nation was founded under God (the God of the Bible specifically). You may still choose to worship Buda, Mohammed, or trees, but the principles and laws of this country are in harmony with the Creator identified in the Bible.
Alex, you have accused anyone who thinks homosexual behavior is a sin as being prejudice and ignorant. Prejudice literally means to judge before knowing the facts. We are not saying that people who choose to act homosexually are not some of the nicest people you know, I can believe that since I have experienced the same thing. We are not prejudice because we are judging AFTER they have CHOSEN to act, not before, and we are only judging their behavior according to our beliefs, just like you are.
So, according to both God and the state, people CHOOSING to act out a homosexual lifestyle have rights. I think what is being discussed is do they deserve special rights based on their chosen sexuality. To this I say no. If we grant rights to every sexual preference we would soon be allowing people to marry their dog or horse or even their organic carrot. Where will it end and who gets to decide?
Thank you very much, Bard, for your new and wonderful insights. I agree with you completely; you express yourself so well!
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting!
~Kendra